Order of Business

Senator Mark Daly: I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that the Taoiseach attend the Chamber to discuss NAMA and his statement last week about his sources and what they told him. It is unusual that the Taoiseach agrees with me on concerns about developers buying back property. The Taoiseach has since rowed back but I maintain my position. My sources are willing to meet the Taoiseach to explain how this is going on but I am sure the Taoiseach is well aware of it. My information comes from a confidential source. We often get information from sources who ask that their identities remain undisclosed. It helps us to do our job because, if we disclose our sources, people will not trust us with information.

Many people in public life were given information about planning corruption in Dublin up to 20 years ago but they failed to act. They did not introduce necessary legislation to punish those who behaved incorrectly. Thus, there was a major loss to the taxpayer. As a result, we have numerous calls for a tribunal after the event. A tribunal on planning went on for ten years, had an army of barristers and cost almost €100 million. I do not propose a tribunal on the aftermath of NAMA, I propose we should act now.

I also find it unusual that the chairman of NAMA is in agreement with me regarding the NAMA website. On 27 January I proposed that every property under the control of NAMA should be put up on the NAMA website. Last week the chairman said there would be such website, where all properties are shown. This will not apply to all property, only property over which NAMA has control through liquidators and receivers. NAMA is in control of some €72 billion worth of assets but not all of that will be on the website. Much of it will be sold by the developers, which is the kernel of the issue. Developers should not be in charge of the sale of their assets because it is open to corruption.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Daly can make these points during the debate.

Senator Mark Daly: I will, if the Taoiseach agrees to it. Fianna Fáil will propose the NAMA transparency Bill so that every asset under the control of NAMA, whether a loan or a property, will be on the NAMA website. In that way, any person in this country or beyond can see what NAMA is selling and how people can bid for it.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business requesting the Taoiseach attends the House to tell us what he knows about NAMA. In that way all can hear his views.

Senator Jim Walsh: I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Daly, who has been consistent in raising this issue. I thought the Taoiseach’s statement was courageous but I was concerned to hear him backtrack under pressure from officialdom. Many of the economic and fiscal difficulties we are encountering arose because people within the public service were not giving the advice that was necessary and the politicians probably lacked the expertise or did not engage those with the appropriate knowledge to chart a proper way forward. The exposure to the taxpayer through NAMA is enormous and should it go wrong in any way it will have a negative impact on economic and fiscal recovery.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: It is not so long ago that two senior politicians in the State revealed serious abuses in the operation of the State apparatus. One was a member of the Fine Gael Party and the other was a member of the Labour Party. They came under immense pressure at the time to reveal their sources. They continued to resist the pressure and they argued that, first, they would not have access to the information only that the person supplying it felt that it was being transmitted with confidentiality. We are all aware that, subsequently, the tribunal which was set up very much supported the position of those two politicians. One is a Minister today and the other is a Member of the European Parliament. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude because it was their courage and tenacity at that time which brought the abuses to light and also brought a conclusion at the same time. Ironically, around the same time one of the daily newspapers also found itself with legal problems when it was also asked to reveal the sources of its information. That went all the way through the legal process. Members all know the outcome.

There is very much a similarity with Senator Mark Daly’s contention today that if information is supplied to a Member of the Oireachtas one would like to think that the person bringing it could feel secure in so doing, because if people do not feel like that is the case it is possible that type of information will not be brought forward. The issues raised on NAMA suggest, if proven correct, that we are dealing with an exceptionally serious situation. We all know the public attitude to NAMA and why it came into existence. The public will be watching the issue very closely. As a House of Parliament we have an opportunity to do like those two politicians did some years ago. I hope we have the courage and foresight to do that.

Senator Paul Coghlan: With respect, Senator Daly is being deliberately provocative on the issue of NAMA. It is outlandish to claim that the Taoiseach agreed with him. Under no circumstances did that happen. He expressed the hope, publicly, that the type of situation alleged by Senator Daly could not happen and that NAMA was on top of the situation and would ensure it could not happen. A public assurance was given to that effect by Mr. Frank Daly, the chairman of NAMA.

Senator Mark Daly: On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Daly to speak on a point of order.

Senator Mark Daly: Senator Coghlan is well aware that he is misquoting the Taoiseach.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.

Senator Mark Daly: That is not what the Taoiseach said.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.

Senator Mark Daly: The Taoiseach said the opposite. Senator Coghlan is well aware of that fact.

Senator Paul Coghlan: That is not a point of order.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Daly.

Senator Mark Daly: Senator Coghlan might point that out at his next parliamentary party meeting.

Senator Paul Coghlan: The Taoiseach fully accepted the assurances of the chairman of NAMA.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Daly well knows that is not a point of order.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I ask the Leader-----

An Cathaoirleach: We are not having the debate in the House today.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I know that but I wish the Leader to confirm that it is the duty, as Senator Daly is aware, under law that NAMA must do due diligence on all acquirers and that it is precluded by law from selling in trust.

Senator Mark Daly: On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh.

Senator Paul Coghlan: If Senator Daly is a dutiful public servant-----

An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Coghlan have a question for the Leader?

Senator Paul Coghlan: I have.

Senator Mark Daly: Senator Coghlan is misquoting the Act. That is the case for only those properties over which NAMA has power as a liquidator or as a receiver.

Senator Paul Coghlan: No, Senator Daly is wrong.

An Cathaoirleach: We are on the Order of Business. Does Senator Coghlan have a question for the Leader?

Senator Paul Coghlan: The Leader knows that Senator Daly has not-----

An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Coghlan have a question for the Leader?

Senator Paul Coghlan: Yes. I ask the Leader if any Member of this House - that includes Senator Daly - has made anything available. A dutiful public servant would make the information available to NAMA.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: That remark should be withdrawn.

Senator Paul Coghlan: He could use privilege to put it on the record.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I have one other matter to raise.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Coghlan should resume his seat. I have called on Senator Noone.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I know you have.                                                

An Cathaoirleach: I have called on Senator Noone. Please.

Senator Paul Coghlan: The matter that Senator Ó Murchú referred to-----

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Coghlan, I have called Senator Noone.

Senator Paul Coghlan: Those two Deputies went to the Minister for Justice.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Coghlan, resume your seat.

The question of NAMA was raised by a number of Senators. I thought we would have to institute peace talks for two Kerry Senators on that.

Senator Maurice Cummins: It is a serious issue and we will try to have a discussion with the Minister for Finance in the context of the debate we are trying to organise. I have no objection to bringing in the chairman of NAMA if the Committee on Procedure and Privileges permits an expansion of the category of people that can come in here. However, we should hear from the Minister for Finance on the subject first.

An Cathaoirleach: Before we conclude the Order of Business, I welcome a former Member of the Seanad and Dáil Éireann to the Visitors Gallery, Paul Connaughton.

Senator Mark Daly has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, “That statements on the Taoiseach’s comments on NAMA be taken today.” Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Mark Daly: Yes.

Amendment put: